Sufism and Zen.

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Zenny
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Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

I was brought up as a Muslim and I see lots of good parallels with the Islamic mystic tradition (Sufism) and
The Zen tradition (which is a mystic tradition of buddhism) . In both the bottom line is to do enough meditation/Zhikr to become one with the truth/divine.
Both have a kind of iconoclasm and independence from excessive scriptural reasoning and legalism.
The mystic tradition is an attempt to get to the core of all religions,which is direct personal experience. Of course I'm not a fan of the guru/student relationship or the organised nature of these two paths. When paths are organised mostly corruption and politics enter. Especially amongst bigger organisations.
In fact I would say private practice is the core of spirituality. Anybody else think private religion is the way?
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Brahma Das
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Brahma Das »

I pray to Allah personally every day, and I have read the Quran and Love it very much.

The difference between personal prayer and religion out in the open has been mentioned by Jesus in the Bible:
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Although it is mentioned in the Quran that Allah is not the Father of Jesus and one must not attribute Him as such—that is actually correct! God the Father and Allah are One in Purpose and in Love, but Allah with regards to Jesus’ birth is not the same direct entity as God the Father, they are simultaneously One and different entities, different Gods but also the Same God in a different Avatar, because God has very much work to do. It is correct to say that Allah is actually God the Father too, both versions are correct, but ultimately there is a level of God that is so personal it is transcendental to Fatherhood and Sonship and even Pure Divinity, and it can be found within, to the point of being able to turn to it inwardly whenever one needs, even at a time when you feel you can’t talk to your Heavenly Father, or someone else.

So anyway, it is important to have a truly authentic Spiritual life. I think that is what you are looking for Zenny, so do not feel discouraged in your search. The Truth is in you.

Allahu Ackbar!

:heart:
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

Brahma Das wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 6:49 pm I pray to Allah personally every day, and I have read the Quran and Love it very much.

The difference between personal prayer and religion out in the open has been mentioned by Jesus in the Bible:
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Although it is mentioned in the Quran that Allah is not the Father of Jesus and one must not attribute Him as such—that is actually correct! God the Father and Allah are One in Purpose and in Love, but Allah with regards to Jesus’ birth is not the same direct entity as God the Father, they are simultaneously One and different entities, different Gods but also the Same God in a different Avatar, because God has very much work to do. It is correct to say that Allah is actually God the Father too, both versions are correct, but ultimately there is a level of God that is so personal it is transcendental to Fatherhood and Sonship and even Pure Divinity, and it can be found within, to the point of being able to turn to it inwardly whenever one needs, even at a time when you feel you can’t talk to your Heavenly Father, or someone else.

So anyway, it is important to have a truly authentic Spiritual life. I think that is what you are looking for Zenny, so do not feel discouraged in your search. The Truth is in you.

Allahu Ackbar!

:heart:
Where do you get the idea of discouraged!!??
I'm not looking for an "authentic" spiritual life,I'm asking a question and expressing my ideas.
My main point is you don't need to be authenticated by some guru. The truth is in us,yes,not from some guru.
It would be nice if people shared their views and experiences,not their dogmas.
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Brahma Das
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Brahma Das »

Sometimes truths and experiences come from Gurus and Religious connections, those things can be deep within some people’s Realizations to what matter to them Spiritually. It’s like having Spiritual Friends or being part of a sports team or martial arts club. There is solidarity in friends and being in a group of likeminded practitioners who can accomplish great things. But I understand your perspective.

How are your thoughts on reaching Enlightenment? And helping others do the Same? Certainly to trek out on the Spiritual Path one must feel the growing need to Transcend this entire world. The question is how. And also we hope to help others do the Same.

:bow:
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

Brahma Das wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 10:36 pm Sometimes truths and experiences come from Gurus and Religious connections, those things can be deep within some people’s Realizations to what matter to them Spiritually. It’s like having Spiritual Friends or being part of a sports team or martial arts club. There is solidarity in friends and being in a group of likeminded practitioners who can accomplish great things. But I understand your perspective.

How are your thoughts on reaching Enlightenment? And helping others do the Same? Certainly to trek out on the Spiritual Path one must feel the growing need to Transcend this entire world. The question is how. And also we hope to help others do the Same.

:bow:
I think enlightenment is a bad phrase as it assumes we are not already complete,and assumes there is some distant or one time goal. I use the word happiness. We are already happy and we want to Improve our happiness,and that takes practice. We overcome anxiety to improve,and this makes us happy. It's an eternal process. The happiness of eternal creativity and growth. Its not to transcend the world but to create your own world,to paint your own world.
Helping others is of course essential and natural to our happiness. I want to create happiness with others,I cannot be happy alone. We share happiness and inspire others in their practice. But each person is responsible for their own practice. It's like tennis. We learn by competing with each other,but it's not about one being guru and the other student. We learn best when we compete with each other in a constructive way that benefits both.
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Brahma Das
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

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Do you sense something in the Buddha such as an Awakening that had brought Him to the Highest Plateu of Spiritual Understanding, cessation material life, and entering fully into the Spiritual? Into Buddhahood? I have felt a similar strive all of my life, and I have always sensed such from the Buddha.

Do you believe in God?

How do you feel about people such as Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and Krishna who openly spoke about Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, outlining how to worship the Supreme Lord and be His Devotee in the Bhagavad Gita? What discerns Truth, and the Supreme Absolute Truth?

Just like you have Loved someone in your life, and you can sense with that understanding beyond doubt that you Love that person, in the Same way Truth can be discerned, even Higher Truth and that is by the power of the Highest Love, the Holy Spirit. In such true happiness can be found, and you can find what your True Self is as well—your Soul—which seeks Enlightenment.

There is no Enlightenment as an independently existing object of the mind. The Diamond Sutra speaks of this:
“What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?”

The Venerable Subhuti replied, “As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha’s teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata’s teaching is not self-existent nor is it nonself-existent. Why? Because the noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the unconditioned.”
Once someone attains Enlightenment they have realized there is no Enlightenment to attain, even for those who are seeking it. There is no coming, no going, and no entering extinction or cessation of material existence. The Highest Love is understanding that everyone deserves the Highest Love and always implementing that in Life always, forever, Eternally. Such a thing is simple. Love is the only thing that lasts forever. Love is there in the Flesh because it is founded on the Spiritual Flesh of the Christ who accepted everyone as His Children, of which we are all His parts and parcels, either in order or not in order, obedient or rebellious, but in His Love He will bring us all back to His service, and in that Way, His Love Transcends any unfair limitations placed on Him, and by His Grace we will all be set free one day. The Buddha is the Christ, and He came in the Flesh. Namaste. :heart:

Allahu Ackbar.
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

Brahma Das wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:29 am Do you sense something in the Buddha such as an Awakening that had brought Him to the Highest Plateu of Spiritual Understanding, cessation material life, and entering fully into the Spiritual? Into Buddhahood? I have felt a similar strive all of my life, and I have always sensed such from the Buddha.

Do you believe in God?

How do you feel about people such as Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and Krishna who openly spoke about Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, outlining how to worship the Supreme Lord and be His Devotee in the Bhagavad Gita? What discerns Truth, and the Supreme Absolute Truth?

Just like you have Loved someone in your life, and you can sense with that understanding beyond doubt that you Love that person, in the Same way Truth can be discerned, even Higher Truth and that is by the power of the Highest Love, the Holy Spirit. In such true happiness can be found, and you can find what your True Self is as well—your Soul—which seeks Enlightenment.

There is no Enlightenment as an independently existing object of the mind. The Diamond Sutra speaks of this:
“What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?”

The Venerable Subhuti replied, “As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha’s teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata’s teaching is not self-existent nor is it nonself-existent. Why? Because the noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the unconditioned.”
Once someone attains Enlightenment they have realized there is no Enlightenment to attain, even for those who are seeking it. There is no coming, no going, and no entering extinction or cessation of material existence. The Highest Love is understanding that everyone deserves the Highest Love and always implementing that in Life always, forever, Eternally. Such a thing is simple. Love is the only thing that lasts forever. Love is there in the Flesh because it is founded on the Spiritual Flesh of the Christ who accepted everyone as His Children, of which we are all His parts and parcels, either in order or not in order, obedient or rebellious, but in His Love He will bring us all back to His service, and in that Way, His Love Transcends any unfair limitations placed on Him, and by His Grace we will all be set free one day. The Buddha is the Christ, and He came in the Flesh. Namaste. :heart:

Allahu Ackbar.
I'm always amused when people preach this universal love nonsense. Or that krishna or jesus or whoever are essential to happiness/truth etc. I'm also amused when people claim they are enlightened or some avatar,and then preach some prepackaged spirituality of monism,we are all one,fluffy Duffy dogma.
To me real folks,will just talk about a method or principle in order to become happier. Like meditation,and everyday Focus and practice in improving. They will also address the obvious presence of evil in the world. And the thing they will emphasise the most is that we have the power as Individuals to improve our own lives,eternally,without gurus,teachers and idols to worship.
Most teachers beliefs are patent nonsense.
Preachers are either control freaks or are trying to boost their stunted low self esteem,or mistaken.
You are preaching reliance on authorities,just like other fools intoxicated with doctrines.
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Brahma Das
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Brahma Das »

Well, good luck my friend. As long as you develop Compassion you’ll be the kind of person you are meant to be. May all of your deepest wishes be fulfilled. :anjali:
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

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Brahma Das wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 5:17 pm Well, good luck my friend. As long as you develop Compassion you’ll be the kind of person you are meant to be. May all of your deepest wishes be fulfilled. :anjali:
Always backhanded nonsense. "As long as you develop compassion". Implying I need work on that.
I don't doubt your a good man. But you are part of the
reason I stay away from people who preach. To much patronising and passive aggressiveness.
Goodwill is needed rather than theoretical universal compassion.
True compassion is for your Family.
And we need to combat and battle the evil in the world.
This ain't just about head in the sand being nice to everyone because it's easier for some people to ignore unjust people.
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Brahma Das
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

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Regardless of your position. I wish you all the best Zenny. You seem to have a decision to right the wrongs in this world, and you have a determination to think critically, with the full need to be a good person. Don’t deny your own goodness :smile: . You will make it very far in life, and if you want to make it to the mountaintop I urge you not to abandon Buddhism. You could become a great Saint. I hope you decide to take the Bodhisattva Vows one day, or renew them from a past life. Your vigor is inspirational, and I hope you are never discouraged because you truly are a good person! :candle:
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

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Brahma Das wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:27 pm Regardless of your position. I wish you all the best Zenny. You seem to have a decision to right the wrongs in this world, and you have a determination to think critically, with the full need to be a good person. Don’t deny your own goodness :smile: . You will make it very far in life, and if you want to make it to the mountaintop I urge you not to abandon Buddhism. You could become a great Saint. I hope you decide to take the Bodhisattva Vows one day, or renew them from a past life. Your vigor is inspirational, and I hope you are never discouraged because you truly are a good person! :candle:
I appreciate your words. And I already said I don't doubt you are a good person.
I've never been buddhist. I just think some Zen practices are the closest to a pure spirituality there is.
I don't want to be a Saint or bodhisattva,I don't believe in them.
I just want to be a better version of me for my Family.
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Brahma Das
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

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As long as what you want is good, you will certainly achieve it in one form or another. I praise your effort and thank you for your Compassion. Thank you, Zenny. :candle:
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

Brahma Das wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:54 am As long as what you want is good, you will certainly achieve it in one form or another. I praise your effort and thank you for your Compassion. Thank you, Zenny. :candle:
:namaste:
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Brahma Das
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Brahma Das »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 5:01 am
Brahma Das wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:54 am As long as what you want is good, you will certainly achieve it in one form or another. I praise your effort and thank you for your Compassion. Thank you, Zenny. :candle:
:namaste:
:bow: :heart:
Ajay0
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Ajay0 »

Zenny wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:57 pm I was brought up as a Muslim and I see lots of good parallels with the Islamic mystic tradition (Sufism) and
The Zen tradition (which is a mystic tradition of buddhism) . In both the bottom line is to do enough meditation/Zhikr to become one with the truth/divine.
Both have a kind of iconoclasm and independence from excessive scriptural reasoning and legalism.
The mystic tradition is an attempt to get to the core of all religions,which is direct personal experience. Of course I'm not a fan of the guru/student relationship or the organised nature of these two paths. When paths are organised mostly corruption and politics enter. Especially amongst bigger organisations.
In fact I would say private practice is the core of spirituality. Anybody else think private religion is the way?
In Eckhart Tolle's ' The Power of Now' he describes about the Sufi being a son of the present moment. This is what Zen is largely about.

Zenny wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:57 pm In fact I would say private practice is the core of spirituality. Anybody else think private religion is the way?
It is said that being in contemplation of the Divine or present moment awareness is the highest spiritual practice, the second being in the company of enlightened masters, and the third being the reading of spiritual books.

So I agree that private religion is the way, but not everyone is strong enough to rely on himself or herself in this regard. Hence company of enlightened sages or saints and service to them is then recommended. If one is not able to attain these above two, then the reading of good spiritual books is recommended.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost.~ Buddha AN 10.1

If you do right, irrespective of what the other does, it will slow down the mind. ~ Rajini Menon
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

Ajay0 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:30 am
Zenny wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:57 pm I was brought up as a Muslim and I see lots of good parallels with the Islamic mystic tradition (Sufism) and
The Zen tradition (which is a mystic tradition of buddhism) . In both the bottom line is to do enough meditation/Zhikr to become one with the truth/divine.
Both have a kind of iconoclasm and independence from excessive scriptural reasoning and legalism.
The mystic tradition is an attempt to get to the core of all religions,which is direct personal experience. Of course I'm not a fan of the guru/student relationship or the organised nature of these two paths. When paths are organised mostly corruption and politics enter. Especially amongst bigger organisations.
In fact I would say private practice is the core of spirituality. Anybody else think private religion is the way?
In Eckhart Tolle's ' The Power of Now' he describes about the Sufi being a son of the present moment. This is what Zen is largely about.

Zenny wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:57 pm In fact I would say private practice is the core of spirituality. Anybody else think private religion is the way?
It is said that being in contemplation of the Divine or present moment awareness is the highest spiritual practice, the second being in the company of enlightened masters, and the third being the reading of spiritual books.

So I agree that private religion is the way, but not everyone is strong enough to rely on himself or herself in this regard. Hence company of enlightened sages or saints and service to them is then recommended. If one is not able to attain these above two, then the reading of good spiritual books is recommended.
I can live with some of that. As long as teachers are trying to get their students independent eventually and tell their students they must practice privately and not rely on the teacher.
I'm not sure what you mean by service to saints and sages?
As for present moment awareness,I get what you mean,I would just phrase it as being focused in everyday life and continual progressive practice of Focus in all tasks.
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Nicholas
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Nicholas »

Ajay0 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:30 am
So I agree that private religion is the way, but not everyone is strong enough to rely on himself or herself in this regard. Hence company of enlightened sages or saints and service to them is then recommended. If one is not able to attain these above two, then the reading of good spiritual books is recommended.
Doubt it is simply a matter of self-reliant strength. Even after spending years in a cave meditating it was traditional to visit a realized Master and reproduce in His presence the bodhi state one gained in the cave. The Master would then certify and describe the state as good or off target or bad or good but shallow et cetera.

Generally speaking, good karma or merit is accrued more from service to a Sage than other meritorious actions.

Yes, recitation, memorizing, meditation on and study of sacred texts is very valuable; more so nowadays when there are more phony gurus than real ones.
Truth is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

Nicholas wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:28 pm
Ajay0 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:30 am
So I agree that private religion is the way, but not everyone is strong enough to rely on himself or herself in this regard. Hence company of enlightened sages or saints and service to them is then recommended. If one is not able to attain these above two, then the reading of good spiritual books is recommended.
Doubt it is simply a matter of self-reliant strength. Even after spending years in a cave meditating it was traditional to visit a realized Master and reproduce in His presence the bodhi state one gained in the cave. The Master would then certify and describe the state as good or off target or bad or good but shallow et cetera.

Generally speaking, good karma or merit is accrued more from service to a Sage than other meritorious actions.

Yes, recitation, memorizing, meditation on and study of sacred texts is very valuable; more so nowadays when there are more phony gurus than real ones.
Its always the less strong who doubt that the strong can do things differently.
History is not all from books or the mouth of teachers my friend.
Self reliance and strength is the way for those who feel confident to do so.
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Nicholas
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Nicholas »

Zenny wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:42 pm
Its always the less strong who doubt that the strong can do things differently.
History is not all from books or the mouth of teachers my friend.
Self reliance and strength is the way for those who feel confident to do so.
Fare Thee Well and consider helping me (and others?) when you become a buddha or Sage.
Truth is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
Zenny
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Re: Sufism and Zen.

Post by Zenny »

Nicholas wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:22 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:42 pm
Its always the less strong who doubt that the strong can do things differently.
History is not all from books or the mouth of teachers my friend.
Self reliance and strength is the way for those who feel confident to do so.
Fare Thee Well and consider helping me (and others?) when you become a buddha or Sage.
Why don't you help yourself instead of waiting for a saviour?
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